[!@#$%!]

marriage is not about men & women or churches or any of that. what we're talking about here is forming a family and having the rights, protections and obligations of a family.

what's being questioned is the right of gay people to form a family. and currently they are being denied. the rest is all a bunch of semantic bullshit.

besides: the state is not a church & it never has been. you don't need a marriage license from the state to have a religious ceremony. and you don't need a religious ceremony to have a civil marriage.

funny how quickly we forget history-- in the XIX century, the catholic church (and other churches) fought against civil marriage because they saw it as a loss in their power and influence. they argued that marriage was a church affair not a matter of state. yet the state has its own reasons to recognize people as members of a family, and so civil marriage is a prevailing feature of life everywhere.

curiously enough, the state of israel is probably the only democracy that does not have civil marriages. the religious orthodox camp has the monopoly on marriage, so than even conservative and reform jews have to have an orthodox marriage. many israelis therefore chose to marry outside their country (cyprus being a favorite due to its proximity) , the state of israel then has to recognize the foreign marriage because of diplomatic reasons.

now i don't know who in america wants to give churches power over matters of state-- wait! republicans do! but sorry, there is separation of church & state, so the chuch should shut the fuck up on who gets a marriage license from the state. they in turn are free to set up their own requirements for marriage upon which the state has no say.