Sonic Youth Gossip - The Politics Thread

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Soup Nazi

Wait, what?

Goddammit...

yeah, fico won, but it's a parliamentary government, so much is left to be determined yet.

it's still fucked up news though. nothing to celebrate. they're fixin' to stab ukraine in the kidneys. orbán already sent his congratulations.

Tonight, on Law & Order: Fraud Victims Unit

The fatigue. The dejection. Now that's a picture for the ages. Cheeto looks worried. As well he should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antagon

The fatigue. The dejection. Now that's a picture for the ages. Cheeto looks worried. As well he should.

To me it looks more like he's trying to figure out the magic of computer monitors...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Soup Nazi

You're beautiful, more beautiful than me
You're honorable, more honorable than me
Loyal to the Bank of America

It's a sign of the times
It's a sign of the times

You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen
Sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen

Vested interest united ties, landed gentry rationalize
Look who bought the myth, by jingo, buy America

It's a sign of the times
It's a sign of the times

You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen
Sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen

Enemy sighted, enemy met, I'm addressing the realpolitik
Look who bought the myth, by jingo, buy America

{"Let us not assassinate this man further Senator,
You've done enough, have you no sense of decency, sir?
At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"}

You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen
Sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen

Enemy sighted, enemy met, I'm addressing the realpolitik
You've seen start and you've seen quit
(I'm addressing the table of content)
I always thought of you as quick

Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning, meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning, meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)

Quote:

Originally Posted by _tunic_

You're beautiful, more beautiful than me
You're honorable, more honorable than me
Loyal to the Bank of America

It's a sign of the times
It's a sign of the times

You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen
Sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen

Vested interest united ties, landed gentry rationalize
Look who bought the myth, by jingo, buy America

It's a sign of the times
It's a sign of the times

You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen
Sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen

Enemy sighted, enemy met, I'm addressing the realpolitik
Look who bought the myth, by jingo, buy America

{"Let us not assassinate this man further Senator,
You've done enough, have you no sense of decency, sir?
At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"}

You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen
Sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen

Enemy sighted, enemy met, I'm addressing the realpolitik
You've seen start and you've seen quit
(I'm addressing the table of content)
I always thought of you as quick

Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning, meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning, meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)

"Michael Stipe at his desk behind the mixing console in Nashville while recording Document. Note the book on McCarthy."

Oh shit, Jim Seditious Traitor Jordan is already going for the Speakership...

i fear that not saving mccarthy is going to backfire horrible for democrats who could have had a piece of him in spite of the insults or whatever. who cares about insults. they could have had him in the palm of their hands.

now who knows what will happen. all the candidates are terrible. like, worse, truly, if one didn't think that was possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antagon

Satire Is Dead

yes

italy issuing bonds at 5% puts them in a very difficult fiscal spot vis a vis their expected 1% growth, their debt to gdp ratio, 5.3% budget deficit, ecb rules for providing assistance, investor expectations, and various other reality constraints.

this is the meloni photo that the economist published in their article that discusses this situation:

it's just a stock photo. but she looks... very stressed, lol.

-

ps- im not ready to discuss hamas vs israel. awful. it will not end well.

-

eta:

official war declaration now. goddamn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ps- im not ready to discuss hamas vs israel. awful. it will not end well.

It's a common theme, it seems. A very loaded subject. Measured responses take time. I think I haven't seen a single post in my Facebook feed. And my bubble is usually very quick to respond to current goings-on. But I can see why. Emotions are running high quite quickly with that subject matter. People don't want to seem like they are taking sides immediately. A lot are just in shock too, I think. It's horrendous. Innocents on both sides bearing the brunt of this conflict. I think it's okay not to air immediate reactions as they occur - it's already a lot to take in and so much history behind it. Restraint and contemplation have their place too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Soup Nazi

A few links before we have our... great discussion or something.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/09/o...ria/index.html

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10...rael_explosion

https://www.thedailybeast.com/does-h...inians-in-gaza

it's not gonna be great lol.

i haven't read your links yet but from what i've gathered so far elsewhere is netanyahu knew something was coming and dismissed it. he even got a call from egypt.

now on the path of retaliation he aims to "remake the middle east." very convenient for a fucker who was already trying to grab more power.

and the people will get crushed and he does not care. as hamas does not care, it only feeds their cause, they fucking love martyrs.

tldr bibi works for hamas, hamas works for bibi

they should meet in a stadium and fuck each other to death with knives and leave the people alone

i foresee no end to the escalation. everyone will be outraged, there will be plenty of thoughts and prayers going around, endless blame, but just more butchery in the end. not sure really for what purpose, not sure how it will end but it could get BIG. enough parties want this to get big. it will be very bad with extremists in control on all sides.

--

ps your daily beast link has a block in front

..

ok i agree with a lot of what the amy goodman professor mentions, from his perspective anyway, because israelis have their own as well, but i think he's wrong on the interpretation of the intelligence israel got from egypt, it's not racism or "these people can't do that"... this attack is just too fucking convenient for the israeli far right at this juncture, think it was ignored on purpose.

--

a different link: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/edit...f-bdff47070000

you might need to add an email address. [works only once]

look look look at what this guy is saying. he's ready to escalate

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...va-white-house

look for video named "Hamas official: attack was known by only 'a handful' of commanders"

he wants prisoner release (from america), says is not cut off from supplies and is ready with reserves "for many months," and warns of "allies" entering the fray if gaza is destroyed. i'm sure he would love that, martyrdom and conflagration. also he's mentioned "american weapons" as a special bait.

meanwhile, i think the degenerate bibi wants to destroy gaza and maybe is itching to engage iran. he wants, after all, to "remake" the middle east. that (to me) points to iran. and iran and russia are best buddies right now, having gangraped syria together. to me, this has no end in sight.

rockets from the north (only 4 out of 15 intercepted), ashkelon (in the south) hit by rockets (hamas "warned" residents they say), israel continues bombing, escalation is in progress and looking very fucking ugly.

-

the lebanon border is now in play with hezbollah / idf exchanging gunfire.

it's going to be all-out war. fuck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ps your daily beast link has a block in front

Not to me. Do you have an ad blocker in your browser?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Soup Nazi

Not to me. Do you have an ad blocker in your browser?

it's a paywall

maybe i'll erase cookies... otherwise a synopsis would be welcome

--

anyway, biden condems "the sheer evil" of hamas

which, okay, hamas is a piece of shit, we know this.

but this "evil" label... is often used to justifiy extremes, like preemptive wars and other atrocities.

because in political philosophy there are 3 schools regarding war: realism (there is no morality, everything goes), pacifism (war is never good) and "just war" which attempts to conduct war "morally."

current international law upholds the ideal of just war. the united nations and others are already cataloguing war crimes, like video assisted refereeing. accusations are flying. even the amy goodman palestinian professor admitted hamas committed war crimes.

but this pursuit of a just war is often kabuki, window dressing for the real atrocities going on behind the scenes.

and realism often wins out (pacifism... rarely or never does). it just does. we see it all the time.

for example, hamas goes and kills and kidnaps a bunch of unarmed people and children and they say "oh, the israelis made us do it, this is a just war."

and israel has been squeezing gaza because it harbors hamas. therefore: "just war!".

and now the criminal netanyahu is preparing to do who knows what, and he has a justification, doesn't he? "they are evil, so i will hurt 2.5 million people: just war!"

it's very hard to keep things "just" in war. the expression is almost oxymoronic. but the current people in charge are extremely hawkish. there is very little room for justice or morality when it's open season on "the enemy" of an extremist.

so my question here is: is the "evil" label going to be used to frame realist actions against gaza as a "just war"? you know, kinda like hiroshima? "justified"?

or is biden using his unconditional support of israel to simultaneously hold back the israeli right wing in their realist designs to "remake" the region?

because, as shitty as hamas is: razing gaza, invading lebanon and syria, bombing iran, getting the russians involved and who knows what else in order to "remake" the region would be a terrible terrible terrible fucking response.

M'kay, 1/2...

Quote:

Do Hamas’ Brutal Tactics Do Anything to Help Palestinians?

The Gaza-based group’s shockingly vicious assault on Israel is just the first chapter of what’s going to be a horrible back-and-forth of bloodshed.

Opinion by Hussein Ibish

On Friday, October 6, the Palestinian militant group Hamas launched a daring, brutal and highly effective attack on southern Israel. Easily breaching supposedly impenetrable Israeli defenses and encountering little Israeli military resistance, Hamas beseiged numerous communities and killed at least 800 Israelis, most of them civilians. They spirited dozens of military prisoners and civilian hostages into Gaza on motorcycles, in golf carts and even on foot. It was the most devastating surprise assault in Israel in over 50 years and unprecedented in its impact on its sense of stability and security.

Hamas is the paramilitary wing of the Muslim Brotherhood among Palestinians, formed in 1987 as grassroots Palestinian organizations led a spontaneous uprising against Israeli occupation that focused on protests and stone-throwing. In contrast to that grassroots uprising and the diplomatic strategy of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) that had already decided to seek a two-state peace agreement with Israel, the Brotherhood in Gaza created Hamas to pursue a religiously-sanctioned armed struggle against Israel.

Hamas proved popular in Gaza, which had been highly influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood during Egypt’s rule of the Strip between 1948-1967. Cairo had allowed some Egyptian Muslim Brothers to operate in the Palestinian territory it controlled as a kind of safety valve while cracking down on it inside Egypt itself. So, the cultural groundwork for Hamas’ militancy and socially reactionary political agenda already existed inside Gaza. But it proved a harder sell among Palestinians more broadly.

Hamas quickly discovered that it could strengthen its political foothold among Palestinians by yoking its non-compelling social agenda with an uncompromising armed struggle against Israel. As the PLO’s diplomatic agenda appeared to bear fruit with the 1993 Oslo Accords and with the establishment of Palestinian self-rule in populated enclaves of the West Bank and in Gaza, Hamas increasingly turned to violence. But the Islamists continued to play second fiddle to the secular party Fatah which dominates the PLO and came to control the Palestinian Authority (PA).

Hamas’ big break came with the brutal second intifada–or uprising–which began after the failure of the 2000 Camp David peace talks summit. By the fall of 2000, although PLO negotiations with Israel were continuing, Hamas began introducing both religious themes into the “Al-Aqsa intifada,” forcing Palestinian President Yasser Arafat to use such religious terminology that was very foreign to the PLO. Hamas began a series of brutally effective suicide bombings against Israeli targets that proved the main means through which Palestinians were able to take the conflict into Israel and remind ordinary Israelis that they were at war with their subject populations.

The second intifada radicalized both Israelis and Palestinians to an unprecedented degree, destroying the Israeli “peace camp” and its Palestinian equivalent. While Israelis turned to the extreme right, electing Ariel Sharon, Hamas rose in popularity and became a real competitor, for the first time, against their secular rivals. In the two Palestinian elections following the death of Arafat, Hamas lost the presidency decisively both times, but they and their allied candidates performed well in both parliamentary votes.

In 2007, Hamas brutally expelled Fatah cadres from Gaza and the PA drove Hamas members either underground or out of the West Bank. That split between Palestinians continues to this day, hobbling the national movement, and no election has been held since. Both groups have appeared content to rule in their respective fiefdoms, at least until last Friday.

Hamas’ popularity is hard to gauge. Like other Arab Islamist groups, they tend to do better in legislative elections than all-or-nothing presidential balloting. It’s likely that something like 25-35% of Palestinians are sympathetic to their Islamist social agenda. In parliamentary elections, they been able to add another 10% or so that seems to sympathize with their “armed struggle until victory” rhetoric or wanted to protest Fatah corruption and mismanagement.

It's hard to speculate about the impact of Friday’s assault on southern Israel for Hamas’ popularity; they have clearly grabbed for the mantle of national leadership. While Palestinians brace themselves for Israel’s doctrinally disproportionate retaliation, there is also a good deal of rallying around the flag.

There is no way of discerning how many Palestinians approve of Hamas’ brutality, but there is no doubt many will agree that Israel brought the calamity upon itself. Israelis lulled themselves into a false sense of security, believing that while unaffiliated armed youth groups like the “lion’s den” gang in the West Bank posed a limited new security headache, the situation in both Gaza and the West Bank was basically under control. Israelis assumed they were capable of casually denying millions of Palestinians both citizenship and a state of their own, keeping them stateless, disenfranchised and under military occupation for the past 60 years with no end in sight.

Israelis are now awakened to the fact that they are still in a brutal and existential conflict with the Palestinians. The Palestinians living under occupation in Gaza, which Israel rules from the outside, controlling the coastal waters, the airspace, the electromagnetic spectrum and all of the crossings, except one small crossing controlled by Egypt, have been living in a kind of open-air prison run by especially vicious inmates for two decades. Palestinians in the West Bank also live daily lives in which they can never avoid the rule of a hostile foreign military. The occupation is its own form of grinding violence, and the extreme ethnic discrimination Israel practices in the West Bank has no analog anywhere in the contemporary world.

Yet most Israelis have been able to ignore the occupation as it intensifies, setting the stage for potential large-scale annexation in the West Bank, and likely mass expulsions. They’ve had numerous recent elections in which the occupation went effectively unmentioned while the price of cottage cheese was a hot button issue.

Even in the recent brouhaha over Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s “judicial overhaul” self-coup against Israel’s “Jewish democracy,” the inspiring protest movement similarly ignored the occupation. For many Palestinians, the harsh authoritarianism Israel has imposed on them in the occupied territories was coming home. How could Israel’s “Jewish democracy” remain untainted by its remarkably repressive regime against a captive people?

With bodies littering the streets of southern Israel and dozens spirited off to Gaza to serve as bargaining chips or human shields (two atrocious practices routinely employed in recent decades by the Israeli military), Israelis have been brutally jolted awake. Their self-induced slumber is over.

This awakening will be welcomed by Palestinians, even if they disapprove heartily of the tactics Hamas employed in the butchery. And despite anxiety about Israel’s response, Hamas’ popularity has probably soared. There is a typical rally-around-the-flag effect on both sides. But it’s by no means guaranteed that Hamas will emerge with greater popularity.

...and 2/2:

Quote:

After its last major war with Israel in 2006, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah felt compelled to apologize on Lebanese TV and claim he had not anticipated the intensity of Israel’s response. He even said he wouldn't have authorized the July 11 attack on Israeli soldiers at the Israel-Lebanon border if he had understood the likely outcome. It was absurd, given the Israeli military’s deep attachment to the doctrine of disproportionate retaliation (which even predates the state of Israel), but it was a measure of how damaging the outcome of the war had been to Hezbollah's reputation in Lebanon.

Hamas is unlikely to ever apologize, but it might suffer a similar backlash depending on what happens. The biggest mistake Israel could make would be directly re-occupying the Gaza Strip. That might be tempting under the rubric of not allowing Hamas to continue to run the territory and pose the threat of a repetition of the attack. But it would create a virtual abattoir for Israeli conscripts, who would be picked off by guerrilla forces in Gaza, most notably a resurgent Hamas.

It might be galling for Israel to see Hamas emerge from the rubble and proclaim victory. But as long as there is an occupation, Hamas and more extreme groups will continue to find a constituency for their extremism. The only entity that can possibly control such militancy is a Palestinian state.

Yet not only has Israel never recognized the Palestinian right to a state, let alone Palestinian statehood, since the failure of the Camp David summit in 2000 it has been moving steadily to lay the groundwork for annexation. The annexation movement will undoubtedly point to the recent attacks as necessitating annexation plus the expulsion of Palestinians from key areas in the West Bank, all as a “sad necessity.”

While Israel goes to war with Hamas in Gaza, it’s working overtime to strengthen it politically. Israel’s actions in the coming days will determine whether the attack on southern Israel increases Hamas’ popularity. Unfortunately, Israel appears to be preparing to fall into the trap that has been set for it by preparing a land invasion of Gaza that will probably be followed by a resumed direct occupation, at least for the time.

That will almost certainly prove a tragedy for all parties–except Hamas and Iran.

Quote:

That will almost certainly prove a tragedy for all parties–except Hamas and Iran.

yeah, pretty much. but even that, who knows, this conflict could escalate beyond that.

thanks for the copypasta.

when i say escalate beyond, i mean think of this:

turkey is a nato member. they used to have a secular government. until fairly recently they were an israeli ally.

now turkey has an islamist government (for life, apparently), is a nato frenemy (sweden hi), and has parted ways with israel.

what kind of effect could bibi's retaliation have on turkish politics? turkey is not poor lebanon or decimated syria or poor egypt paying for bread subsidies. turkey has very a powerful military. their military used to be their secular stronghold, btw, but these days-- who knows (their 2016 attempt against erdogan failed, they got reformed).

this whole situstion is a real powder keg. i hope that's just me being paranoid, but i see terrible chain reactions.

Recent elections in Slovakia turned out in a very sad way. We might become Putin's new ally in Europe (after Hungary)

Quote:

Originally Posted by _slavo_

Recent elections in Slovakia turned out in a very sad way. We might become Putin's new ally in Europe (after Hungary)

o man he formed a government!

i'm so sorry slavo

Cheeto praises Hezbollah now.

Dude has consistently had a hard-on for authoritan dictators, extremist groups and radical violent actions throughout the last few years. How is there still a doubt in anyone's mind that the guy is a fucking fascist? I know, dead horse and whatnot at this point. But sometimes, my pre-2016 self likes to to come to a fore and regard the shitshow we're seeing right now. And that part of me is still baffled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _slavo_

Recent elections in Slovakia turned out in a very sad way. We might become Putin's new ally in Europe (after Hungary)

Oh shit.

Vienna Politics in the Dutch newspaper!, google translated

Quote:

Beer party in Vienna shoots up in polls: fountain in the city has to spray beer

The municipal elections in Vienna are still two years to come, but the Beer Party is already providing a small political landslide in the Austrian capital. The playful movement, which a joke arose from a punk band, scores even better in the polls than the conservative party of Chancellor Nehammer.

Guy Hoeks (Kamks) 12-10-23, 21:16

Marco Pogo is a hit on TikTok. The Austrian comedian praises the craziest flavours, dressed as several Viennese ice cream sellers – from chocolate parmesan to Marlboro-Doppelkorn. As a snorted real estate agent with sunglasses at a bar, he paints the rich Viennese district of D?bling as a problem area. And he’s putting mainstream politicians who constantly shout ‘Red’ ma drup!’ (talk over it) to puff by mentioning his own campaign.

Pogo – real name Dominik Wlazny – is especially popular with teenagers and twenty-somethings. But now he also seems to be able to achieve electoral success with a wider audience. Where the Beer Party was long seen as a political gimmick and intended as such a thing, the Pogo movement suddenly shoots up in the polls. The playful party would now get 12 percent of the votes according to a poll by the tabloid Heute. Before the conservative VP of Chancellor Karl Nehammer and the Greens, of which the current Federal President Alexander Van der Bellen was a member for years.

City fountain must spray beer

The Beer Party, which is only active in the capital city of Vienna, wants to increase the tax on radler and other mixing beers by 50 percent. There is also real beer to squirt from the famous Hochstrahlbrunnen city fountain. Moreover, the party advocates 50 liters of free beer per adult and 20 liters for young adults. “If we don’t make a big slip, the beer party is clearly moving to the Vienna City Council,” Pogo said. The party is already represented in eleven different districts.

The beer party is actually a satirical result from Turbobier, a popular punk band of which Pogo has been a singer since its foundation in 2014. From the beginning, the 36-year-old Austrian has been making fun of political themes such as unemployment and beer consumption. But since 2019, the singer has been his job as a part-time politician to take more and more seriously.

According to Pogo, it is important that the beer party, just as in 2020, when the movement scored poorly, participates in the Viennese municipal elections. “I think politics is too sober,” he said in a TV interview in which he poked positions as party leader of the beer part. “The meaninglessness is leading in Austrian politics. If you have an idea, like my radler proposal, you can win votes at lightning speed.” In that interview, Pogo, who studied medicine, was addressed with ‘Herr Doktor’.

Last year, the Viennese comedian and musician already made a shot at the presidency of Austria. Just like in Germany, this is a ceremonial function. With six other candidates, Pogo then lost without a chance of political veteran Van der Bellen, an opponent more than forty years older.

Momentum

In hometown Vienna, Pogo seems to have the momentum. While the ruling party in the other Austrian states is the dominant political factor, the SP has been leading the dance in the capital for years. But the Social Democrats can make a fall from 41 percent to 35 percent if elections are now taking place, a historically poor prognosis.

Incidentally, the proportions in Austria are distorted: with about two million inhabitants, almost a quarter of all Austrians live in the capital. Nevertheless, many citizens have been politically fed by a chain of scandals. For example, Sebastian Kurz, the youngest chancellor in the country, had to resign two years ago after a vote of no confidence. It was initiated by the so-called Ibiza gate, in which former Chancellor Heinz-Christian Strache of coalition party FP was guilty of corruption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _tunic_

Vienna Politics in the Dutch newspaper!, google translated

Yeah, Marco Pogo has been a sensation for years now. And honestly, I'm not surprised he's more popular than current chancellor Nehammer. Nehammer was, like, the 3rd or 4th in line after the whole chancellor Kurz debacle a couple of years ago. The chancellor had lost a vote of no confidence after all the missteps of his coalition with the far right FPÖ and several suspicions of corruption (later verified).

He for some reason got voted in again after a short period of an interim-government, only to have to leave again because of another massive scandal. Then some other party goon took is place - for a hot second or so. He too stepped down when his sweet prince Kurz was indicted. Not sure anymore if there was someone in between, the government changed heads in what seemed to be a matter of seconds for a while, so it's kind of a blur now. A few other hopefuls also stepped down in solidarity with the wannabe Gordon Gekko.

So basically the bloke who just stayed the longest got the job. No one ever voted for him and all his public appearances have been pretty disastrous. Making a hardliner case for Austria being "a country of motorists" after being criticized by environmentalists for his unwillingness to consider some more sustainable infrastructure. And recently, he had his own "47%" or "Let them eat cake"-moment, when during an event he mused that no family should complain that they can't afford that their children won't go hungry, because, get this - "the cheapest food you can get is a hamburger at McDonald's at 1.40 Euros". The dude is so out of touch with the problems people are facing, it's sad, actually. A soulless metal rod would score better than him right now.

Pogo on the other hand, despite initial satirical aspirations, has actually shown some promise. During the more crucial stages of the pandemic, he actually had some of the better takes of all the candidates and protagonists on the political stage - except for former head of the Social Democratic Party Pamela Rendi Wagner. But she's a woman and medically well-versed, reason enough for the general public to dislike her. Okay, I can feel some of my pandemic misanthropy coming up again, so I'll just wrap it up, before I lose myself in another potshot-fuelled tangent.

Pogo does have some good ideas and I can completely see why he is gaining momentum. I still voted for Van Der Bellen, because he's a seasoned politician who conducts himself with patience and dignity. Pogo's party just wasn't as all-encompassing as you'd like a party that has some major say in national politics to be. And Pogo hasn't been in the game for all too long, he still has blind spots. But he's got spunk and the right attitude. Certainly someone I'm looking out for. I feel like given time, he can mature into someone I could consider voting for. It's weird, but sometimes the candidate for the obvious satirical party has some of the better takes.

POLAND RISES! (If exit polls are correct, that is; they already let me down in Slovakia...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antagon

Man I thought the above was about ME!

hahahha (cheeto55 for the OLD heads)

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaat? Politicians are guilty of shady shit?